E5 • Racial Reconciliation: 4 Ways to Not be a Bystander with Derrick Sier

May 24th, 2021

Just because you’re not committing violent acts of racism doesn’t mean you aren’t responsible for the persistence of racism.


Many think racism is only aggressive hateful acts done directly to races opposite their own.

But any action that projects inferiority onto another, makes suspicious assumptions, casts blanket statements, or believes/acts from a place of hate, all based on someone’s race, is racism.

Think back to the last time someone said or did something that was even slightly racist. What did you do?

Plenty of times we’ve found ourselves in that situation & out of fear of disrupting the flow of the moment, causing a scene, or whatever the reason is, we don’t say anything.

That’s a bystander. That’s not who we’re called to be.

In our conversation today, we talk with Derrick Sier about 4 ways to not be a bystander.


Want to Listen to Our Full-Conversation with Derrick Sier?


For more information about Paradigm Shift & growing your company culture send us a message at info@paradigmshiftleadership.com

Full Episode Transcript (auto-generated errors may occur)


Jerrod: [00:00:38] Good morning and good afternoon or good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to another episode of the Good Leader podcast. Today, we are continuing our conversation about race and racial reconciliation with the one and only Derrick Sier.

Jerrod: [00:00:51] Now, if you haven’t, listen to the first episode. Just jump back and check it out. If you did listen to it, I hope that you were challenged by it and was challenged by comfort zones. I was challenged by creating safe spaces. And I hope you were challenged. If you remember, we talked in the first part of this discussion about bystanders in the National Holocaust Museum. I shared the story when I was stopped in my tracks reading this black and realizing I’m probably a bystander on. Are you a bystander?

Ang: [00:01:22] Oh, yeah. I have to be terrible.

Jerrod: [00:01:24] Shame on you.

Ang: [00:01:26] I mean, I don’t know how I can it be, you know.

Jerrod: [00:01:28] Well, that’s what we’re going to remedy today and, you know, pay attention and we’re going to figure it out. Yeah. Now, I appreciate your levity. It’s OK to laugh. Can I can I just say this is a very serious issue. This is something that is affecting us all. And if you want to recognize that you’re a bystander, great. Me too. Let’s do something about it. In fact, I think that we should do more smaller things about it, that it’s OK to smile at who we are, to laugh at our mistakes. It’s not the big stuff. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not laughing at these issues. I’m just saying it’s OK.

Jerrod: [00:02:02] Derrick and I have fun with each other. That’s why we create a safe space. We have created a friendship, an environment where we don’t have to justify everything we say. We don’t have to give a disclaimer with everything we say. We’re not walking on eggshells, afraid to offend. Sometimes he offends me. Sometimes I have him. But we’re still friends. That’s what creating the safe spaces and embassy is. It’s not walking into a conversation, a room and saying, I have to worry about being so politically correct that I’m getting nowhere. Yeah, we cannot be stuck with this because we are not NBA players.

Jerrod: [00:02:37] If you’re listening to this podcast, you probably do not have a huge platform. I mean, we are not global leaders. We are not national politicians. We are everyday people, you and I. We are everyday people listening to podcasts, going to work, trying to feed our families, trying to raise decent kids, trying to be good citizens, trying to be followers of our God, trying to do the best we can with what we have.

Jerrod: [00:03:04] We are small people or small people have a big impact. That’s what the Good Leader podcast is about. It’s having levity in these situations and asking ourselves, am I a bystander? And like on, I probably am at this moment, I am neither the victim nor the killer not shooting anybody. I’m not cussing anybody out. I’m not burning any crosses. I’m not wearing any hoods or robes. But I watch a lot. I see what’s happening, but I don’t have a huge platform and I don’t really know what to do today. We hope to give you a few ideas. The things that Derrick and I discuss on not being a bystander always to not be a bystander are pretty simple. I hope as you listen to this, that you take away at least one thing before we jump into this interview,

Jerrod: [00:03:58] I would encourage you to think of the one thing that sticks out to you the most. We discuss a lot of ideas. What sticks out to you that you go, oh, I could do that. It’s going to be small, like starting a conversation with someone on your kid’s soccer team, reading a book, doing something out of your comfort zone, taking one step in the right direction, metaphorically. But to you physically, what step is that? What conversation do you need to have? Those are the small things. You see what we may be bystanders today. The answer is not change the world.

Jerrod: [00:04:34] It’s simply don’t keep watching, start acting. Let’s help the process. Let’s help move history forward in the right direction. Little by little. If this generation is doing poorly, the generation that I’m in, let me help the next generation better. Let me teach my children differently. Let me expose them to different cultures in new ways that I didn’t have. That’s not being a bystander. So we set up this bystander language. I want you to feel the pressure of changing the world. None of us can do that. Take that off, change your world, stop watching and start doing little by little. I hope this interview gives you some ideas. I love it, I love it, I’ve got four ideas here. Now, these are just my ideas, all right. You can totally shut me down.

Jerrod: [00:05:33] I’m Jerrod says, OK, get out of your fort. Exactly. You can shut me down. This is a safe space. So I got four things that I came up with because I’m like, OK, I want to be better. I want to grow. I want to learn. I mean, we talked about we talked about bystander’s in the in the first segment before this interview. And I’m like, I know the whole of the podcast. Well, you’re so good now you’ve got to come back and we can just talk about that. But that’s how I kind of intro this. Basically, I don’t want to be a bystander. That’s my thing. That’s just a sentence that is in my life. I don’t want to be a bystander, but in many ways right now I feel like a bystander, especially if I’m watching news coverage.

Jerrod: [00:06:06] All this is going on. I mean, we’re you know, we’re filming this we’re recording this in, whatever, early May, late April of twenty twenty one. So we’re basically almost a year removed for some pretty intense real civil unrest. And I’m going I’m mostly watching. That’s what I’m I’m mostly watching. I’m paying attention. I have tried to host conversations. We’ve done some panels within Paradigm Shift. And I so I’m trying to be more proactive and I’ve done some stuff, but I still I want to do more. And so with that, OK, so and I think there are a lot of people listening that maybe feel like I do in that. Well, I don’t I don’t know what to do. Do I go to a rally, show up? Do I? I’m just over here in my own little world not trying to be in my thoughts, wanting to go to embassies. OK, so here are my four thoughts. And you just you actually just preach the first one. Start local.

Jerrod: [00:06:57] Yeah, start local. That’s my first. If I was given tips to people, I would say start local. So for me that look like last year I was like, OK, I can’t change the world. But I do own a company called Paradigm Shift and we have about 80 people here. We are going to have a panel discussion. And I invited our young black professionals are young. Actually, that’s not true. I ask our young professionals of color, they weren’t all black to sit on a panel and answer questions for us.

Jerrod: [00:07:22] We create a safe space. We said, hey, no justification necessary. We all were leaders here. We want to learn. We want to be open. We’re going to ask questions and we’re allow people to ask questions that they might normally not ask. I mean, that was where I learned the difference in Hispanic and Latino, as a matter of fact, that day, because someone asks what’s the difference in Hispanic and Latino are interchangeable? And it was like, well, kind of, but not really. And stay tuned for future episodes of a Good Leader podcast if you would like to know the difference between Hispanic and Latino, because we were going to talk about that. But today, start local is my thing. So people think I want to change the world, OK, I want to be a part of this, whether, you know, so I do. I go on the speaking. I don’t have to show up to where there’s news coverage to have these conversations to start this thing. It’s as simple as and we talked about a lot of it, but I’m saying things and maybe you can give me a couple of tips here that you’ve noticed.

Jerrod: [00:08:07] Like, yeah, maybe I’m not as brave to stop someone in the supermarket, but maybe I can invite someone to dinner. Maybe I can. What? You know, how do how do I start local if you know. Is it like like. Yeah. Asking someone to dinner that maybe you don’t typically trying to find those transferred stuff like that. What you think about that. That’s my number one start local.

Derrick: [00:08:25] Yeah. Number one, I think starting local is very important. Right. Oftentimes we try to go too big. It gets overwhelming. Right. So if we can start with bite size pieces of people that we know or people who know people, I think that’s really good. I also think that people they don’t give credit where maybe they are unaware of the avenues or the access that they have. They’re only looking at friends of friends. Right. And so they’re trying to get a warm handoff. It’s a very difficult conversation, which I think is great. If you can get a warm hand off into a very difficult conversation, that is the ideal way to have the conversation. Right. That’s Gerente saying, hey, listen, she’s she’s legit, man. Like I’ma put you all together, has some very difficult talks. And I’m just going to sit here and, you know, maybe I’ll chime in, but I really want to connect you to that’s the ideal way. Right.

Derrick: [00:09:14] But I think for people, if they’re having this tap on the shoulder and this nudging, they’re good to address this issue or to get outside of their comfort zone, then I think they have to explore the avenues that they have access to. Right. And so now we’re talking about our jobs. Now we’re talking about athletic teams. Right. Maybe our kids are part of maybe our grandkids are part of athletic teams. They we’re talking about going and volunteering at a community initiative. Our project maybe means walking down the street. Or maybe I mean, you don’t sound like we have all of these avenues that we think that we don’t have access to. And I think if we just kind of put our is owned and we want the one hand off into difficult conversations, to me that means you don’t really want to have the conversation.

Derrick: [00:09:55] So local means a lot of different things. Local means your community, local means. Friend of a franchise, Portrush local means athletic teams. Local doesn’t necessarily mean my city. Right. Local means what in my arms reach that I can reach out grab.

Jerrod: [00:10:10] Yeah, I’m saying local like you’re saying connected to you. What is this one. One level like you said earlier, like hey, some people are four or five levels away from a warm handoff, but you’re one level away from my kid’s baseball team. All right. Let me ask you a dumb question. All right, dumb question. So when you’re given this athletic team example, one of my middle children, Jocelyn, she is on a soccer team right now. All right. Yeah, we got one black. Family on our team. All right, mama’s name is. Shout out to D.. Friend of mine. It’s great. What up? D did not listen to this assignment. She’s like she never hear what’s up.

Jerrod: [00:10:47] So here’s the dumb question. I say start local and you’re giving us really good examples there, like your job, the athletic team. If I’m sitting over here and I’m like, I don’t want you guys here, is it as simple as go sit by the black lady at the get sit on the bleachers? They’re like, you know, because if you’ve been to a soccer game, you’ve got bleacher people, you got folding chair people and you got standers, OK, if your family is the bowling chair people, you know, they got the five folding chairs, they got the little folding chair wagon, they got it all together, boom. They make their camp, they sit on, you know, I don’t know, soccer, Derrick, you know, soccer.

Jerrod: [00:11:17] They’re like on the like on the seventy five yard line. That’s typically where they camp out. That’s a perfect one. If they’re really into it, they transfer to the offense to offense at halftime anyway. You know, folding chair. Yeah. Yeah. Become a bleacher person like step out. You know what, I’m not gonna sit my phones here today. I’m a gossip ID. She sits in the bleachers every week. I don’t really know her. I know her child. I know she’s on this team. Yeah.

Jerrod: [00:11:37] Honestly, most people don’t even know her name is D like I’m a pat myself on the back. At least I’ve spoken to D saying Derrick, but let’s get real. Most people are like, hey, what’s that lady’s name. You mean the black lady. I don’t know. You know that black lady has the black kid on your kid’s soccer team. That’s as far as you got. Go sit by her. Go sit by her. Have your family sit with her. Introduce yourself. That’s the start, right? I mean, I’m I’m not trying to dumb this down, but I’m also trying to show people, like, it’s not super complicated to get started. It creating the safe space, creating the easy. Is that does am I being too dumb?

Derrick: [00:12:10] No, no, no, no, no. I think there are some stats before I know. OK, right. And so as a black person, I believe that oftentimes people go out of their way to make me feel comfortable because I’m the only black person. Right. And I’m like, oh, man. Like you to say, nobody is saying it here, but you can it right. Like, come on, bro. It’s one of the things that that I do is when I want to get to know a specific person. Right. Then I address everyone. So if we want to be intentional about connecting with people, we have to be strategic in the way that we do it, because there is very little room for Grace.

Derrick: [00:12:44] When you don’t have that rapport, you come over and you just say something and you try to help you like, hey, what’s going on? I’m looking down the line trying to see who else you’ve been sitting by. The, you know, the rest of the season, like, why are you going to sit next to me? You may not get that grace with a lot of people, but I would say I would go from, hey, how’s it going, everybody? Boo boo, boo, boo boo.

Derrick: [00:13:03] Right. Go to these kids. Oh, great game. Great game, awesome game. Hey, we’re going for some ice cream like anybody want to come. You’re good. You want to come? No. OK, awesome. After every game, you know, saying like I’m just I’m just working it like I’m just pow pow pow pow pow pow. Eventually I’m a sitting next to me. Eventually I will sit next to the next several weeks that suffering encounters before I come sit next to D. I don’t know if D focus on a kid’s game. I don’t know. She’s recording and I’m talking to the back of her video. I don’t know if you know I don’t, I don’t know her story, but as I warm up to her I think they’re very, they’re very applicable steps before that. And then eventually I’m sitting next to me and then eventually they’re coming to birthday parties and then eventually I’m going to their house and then eventually I’m inviting her to church. And individually, I think there’s definitely a strategy to doing it. Sitting next to her after the jump would not be my first one.

Jerrod: [00:13:58] Ok, separate podcast. We’re going to we’re going to have to dive at dive down because personal experience sit exit. He worked. So maybe I’m just maybe I’m a master mover, Derrick, but I love so many things that you said. They’re number one. It speaks to what we said. The diversity and inclusion is not just race. I mean, yes, I’m trying to be very obvious in our conversation here, but it’s also like you don’t know everybody’s story on your saying. You got different socio-economic levels, like, yeah, OK. Nine of the other ten families are white, but you got nine different stories. You got nine different levels of education. Agree. You got nine different home cultures. You got religious everything, everything. You’ve got all these differences that we may not see as obvious, but that’s where you’re saying like, OK, so I love the facts.

Jerrod: [00:14:40] Like, well, I’m not just going to isolate someone individually that speaks to OK, all right, here we go then. My number two is learn more. That’s my number to learn more. I know that superlobbyist maybe or seems overly simplistic, but learn more. I believe that knowledge creates empathy that just like this, if I don’t know a situation of any kind, then I probably am not going to feel compassion or sympathetic for it on a benevolence level. And then furthermore, let’s just take it broader. That’s on benevolence. I think that’s the easiest way to think of empathy. First, with benevolence, people think of empathy is like sympathy, even though that’s not the same to me.

Jerrod: [00:15:16] But then we back it up to some more like theoretical or philosophical levels and say empathy. I just want to see things the way you see them so that I can understand them better so I can I might not do anything about it. It’s not like charity, it’s just knowledge. And having those conversations creates this broader viewpoint. Because when I say start, look. For me, Derrick, it’s like I’ve got many members of my family who are very racist, big time, I grew up in pretty racist circles. I mean, using all kinds of language, all kinds of jokes, all kinds of stuff. And now, like you said, that transfer trust, it’s like starting school and learn more if I’m wanting to really change the world.

Jerrod: [00:15:54] I mean, the best way for me to do it is honestly to show those family members of mine, guess what, all those assumptions you’re making about black people in this case or any sort of person, you know, whatever, black people, gay people, whatever people, whatever group, whatever people group. Right. Look, I’m introducing you to a friend of mine, like you say, because it’s honestly, they’re usually not that racist and brave and bold when they’re in front of someone unlike them, if they like, they’re not the racist that are running around in hoods, burning crosses. They’re the races that are like behind closed doors, holding all these biases and prejudices and all that.

Jerrod: [00:16:29] But then I’m like, well, all right, I’m going to introduce you to someone. And guess what? We think about my friend. And actually, he’s really funny. I’m like, yeah, he’s hilarious. He’s great. Like, yeah, it was really nice. Yeah, he’s great. Like, look at that, you know, saying and I mean those little simple things. But that’s that’s that start. So learning more is simply educating yourself in all sorts of ways. So even like you’re saying, I’m learning more, realizing you’re totally right, everybody at the soccer field is different. And so that athletic club, it’s not just isolating something obvious to us, but also going, you know, I want to get to know you. I want to get to know you and you. And you and you and you and being that type of person.

Jerrod: [00:17:10] Maybe this is the larger leadership lesson. If we’re going good leader podcast here. Yeah. Become the person who initiates conversation with all people. That’s what good leaders do. It’s not just about like, oh, I’m shy. I’m quite I don’t care. I don’t care if you’re shy. We got time for any more daring. We do not have time for you to be shy. We don’t have time for you to say I am. I’m sorry. I’m really sorry. I get it. I’m a dad. I’m focused on my kids. I get it. You’re focused on your kids to dairy. But guess what? It takes me all of thirty seconds to go. Hey, what’s up? Hey, what’s up? Hey, what’s up? You don’t say like.

Jerrod: [00:17:42] Yeah, I’m not talking about ignore your child. I’m talking about be a good leader and talk to the other parents. Be a good leader and be the one that goes. You know what, actually I would dare say. Ninety nine percent of all sports teams are like this. The parents don’t know each other. Nobody’s doing it. And it just takes one person. And it sounds like it’s Derrick and Jerrod in our respective worlds that he go around and just say, what’s up? What’s up, what’s up? That make jokes that crack jokes that that bring it back. I’m a big thing about calling back like, hey, we almost scored last week. Our team’s not very good. So I’ll say like, all right, you know, I’ll call out the if you like. She almost scored. Look at that. She kicked the ball straight. Boom, boom, boom. You upset. But I’m given the compliments across the field like, you know you know, I’m acknowledging their kid in the moment, not just anyway.

Jerrod: [00:18:24] Sorry, Derrick, you get me Ratten today. I’m sorry. OK, rant over. Good leader podcast, get out of the comfort zone and stop making the excuse. Learn more about people and learn more about the situation. Read a book, read a book, watch a documentary. There’s all kinds that we live in the information age. That’s my second tip. What you think about that? I know I ran it, but it’s learn more now.

Derrick: [00:18:43] Learn what is really good. And I wrote down two things that I think is very crucial when we’re on this plight for learning. People don’t want to learn on their own. It’s easier for Jerry to come to Derik before Jerry to do research on his own. And to me, I have this written down and which is the number one start local. I put like one A one B when B would be start local one, it would be start on my own. I start by myself. There’s so many resources out there. If you just typed in like I did before the show, you type in podcasts for white people to understand on race or if you type in books to read on race, like it’s so easy as so many resources out there. But I think people want to be hand fed. They want to be spoon fed this very difficult conversation and that puts all the pressure on the individual that you contact, which is stressful. And so that’s point number one. Right.

Derrick: [00:19:41] When we think about diaspora of being black and safe, it’s too broad for us to base it on one person. Which leads me to number two. People often take information from resources they trust. And so if if Jerry wants to introduce Derrick to his family, I think that’s really cool. But when Derrick leaves, Jarrett stays. And so Janet needs to be responsible for having that conversation more than Derrick does. Right. Derrick can come in and he can he can help people learn. But at the end of the day today, there’s Jerrod’s family, right? I’m talking to my wife. I’m talking to my kids.

Derrick: [00:20:19] I’m talking to my friends about stuff that I learn about other different cultures. Right. They can easily go do it themselves. I encourage them to do it. But when they hear it from me, it seems a bit more safe and a bit more trusted. Right. The transfer of trust is easier to receive from Derrick than it is from Jerry Wright Jr. could have an ulterior motive. Jake could have a skewed perspective, but I trust they are going to access. Then I will read it, then I’ll go do it. So when we talk about learn more, I think that the first thing is we have to be sure that we explain to people that this is my perspective, this is my opinion. And what you’re learning from me, right. Is that is a very limited view. I believe that I’ve experienced enough variety of black people that I could say that my perspective is one of many. Right.

Derrick: [00:21:08] Not because you get it to Africans and then you get to black Americans and then you get into Afro Latinos and then you get you don’t say like the black diaspora is is so very that Derrick is only representing the few. So when we talk about money, it’s very important that people understand when they talk to me that they’re only learning a piece. The second part we’re talking about learning oftentimes think the people learn more from people that they trust rather than bringing someone from the outside in. And they’re like, hey, listen to this guy. He’s got it all down. Right. I want to talk to Jane. I want to take it and explain to his people

Jerrod: [00:21:40] I love it. Well, Derrick, I trust you. Are there any practical, tangible resources that you’ve come across books, podcasts, documentaries, things that you’re like, hey, you should check this out, Jerrod, you really wanna learn something? It’s pretty cool. This is interesting. What do you got?

Derrick: [00:21:54] Yeah. Yeah. So there are some books that I believe are horrible. First reads that everyone should read this. Yessiree. This and white fragility is one of those. Don’t start there. Don’t if you’re listening to this podcast and you want to learn, I think there’s some very hard things that that are big bites to chew it right. And so for me to send you some reading material, a documentary, a movie, a book on white privilege and white fragility, that I’m setting you up for failure, that’s that’s a shock, right? That’s your whole life. You’ve been privileged because you’ve got white skin. Like that is a horrible start for me.

Derrick: [00:22:31] My perspective is that I would I would tell people is that I would say there’s a book called Why the Black Kids Eating Alone. Right.And so when you think when you think about when you think about people confronting their own bias, sometimes it’s best to look to the eyes of the other people group. Right. Instead of me trying you to trying to get you to look through your own eyes, addressing your own. I think that’s down the line. It should be addressed as down the line. But I think if you can start with the other perspective, Fruitvale Station, right. When you think about these these movies that address from the other perspective, right. When you think about Selma, when you take about forty two with Jackie Robinson, we think about just mercy. When you think about 13, talk about the 13th Amendment, you talking about like 12 Years a Slave.

Derrick: [00:23:18] When you looking at all these hidden figures that help when you think about get out, when you think about all these movies, it’s from the eye of the other person. Right. Before I get you to looking at a mirror, which is a hard look if you’re being sincere, that’s a hard look. I would tell you to look to the eyes of the other person, see how they see the justice system, see how they see institutional racism, see how they see oppression and the disparity between education systems. Look look at how they look at poverty. Look at how they see the black male and his role in the family. Like look at those things from their past. And then we’re going to match it up to yours. It’s if I’m talking about some very practical steps,

Derrick: [00:23:59] I’m going to say start with the other side first. That’s what I would say, because looking at your own man, you could build quickly. It’s easy to build quickly when you stand at the mirror and you’re like, am I racist? Am I correct? I guess because there are some who you don’t even get to the other perspective first. But I think if you start with the other side, this podcast, there’s books, there’s movies, documentaries that allow you to see it from the other perspective. And for you to be like, oh, OK. The next thing I would say Dugit part two is I would say take race out of it and then implement an area where you struggle, take race out of it.

Derrick: [00:24:32] Let’s take race out of it and say, how would you feel if somebody said, if you’re if you’re a woman and a man, you know, got some privilege and vice versa, or, you know, if I’m American and they’re not American? I was talking to this guy and he was like, man, the American is the most attached person when it comes to the job place. Like, all these people are coming in from all of these countries getting all these jobs. And I was like, oh, are they getting a job particularly that you want? No, not really. But, you know, it’s the concept. And I’m like, OK, well, let’s have a different conversation. Like, let’s let’s input what you feel like you’re being oppressed instead of you trying to vicariously wear the mantle of someone else’s oppression. Right. So I think that’s the first thing.

Derrick: [00:25:15] Right. The first thing is look at someone else. Like, look the other person’s eyes. If you’re trying to connect with the poor plight or the black plight or sexual preference or gender, if you’re trying to see it from that perspective, then go to that side and do your research and then compare what they think versus what you think. The second thing. Right, which I think is very important, take race out of insert where you believe. I can actually say I’ve been oppressed, I’ve been judged against this, I’ve been this. And then I think that’s a good place to start the conversation.

Jerrod: [00:25:50] Phenomenal. Phenomenal. I love Derrick. It’s nice to hear you say that. Honestly, I appreciate you saying that. I appreciate you didn’t say it’s not true. You didn’t say Jyoti. Right. You don’t need to read it. You said Jerrod. Read it when you’re ready. Look in the mirror when you’re ready to look in the mirror. But look at someone else’s eyes first, get some knowledge, learn more. And maybe my learning more is just one little dose of knowledge, one little, you know, one little thing. Do you have if you can narrow it down, let’s say I’m on that shallow because you gave me a lot of good stuff. Maybe watch a movie. What’s the one thing like if you’re like, OK, I listen to the good little podcast. That Derrick guy is super solid. OK, I’m going to do this one. This one, I’m going to step in to see through someone else’s eyes what’s maybe a really good entry point for that.

Derrick: [00:26:33] There’s a there’s a book called I Think It’s that the The Art of Forgiveness by Desmond Tutu. OK, and he talks about the four steps to even getting to the conversation. But before I even get to the car, there’s a lots of individual work that I have to do so that when I step to the conversation, I’m coming with clean hands and a pure heart. And that book was really a challenge to me because I think that we we come with our offense and we come with a chip on your shoulder and we come to the table with all these preconceived notions in this disposition of offense, like we bring it right.

Derrick: [00:27:15] But it’s like, what if what if I gave the person, not the white man. Right. Who stands on behalf of every white person that has ever been born on the planet? Like how can I come to the table with Jarrett, the man, and have a conversation about race, about oppression, about equality, about justice? How can I? Well, first, it takes lots of forgiveness on my own, forgiveness of who I think represents and allows me to look in the mirror and be like, man, I.

Derrick: [00:27:50] I just really like let me let me think of why I want to have this conversation and what do I want to be the result of this conversation. So and it’s a really quick read, I think it’s called the art or the process of forgiving or something like that, but it talks about how can we have these conversations if we come to the table with a sense we come with all this stuff, then we spend most of our time trying to get through that instead of actually just connecting as humans. Then you can move on to things like racism, which is taking a faith perspective on race. If you think about just mercy, right? Stevenson I think that’s really good. Why all the black kids eating alone? I think that’s really good.

Derrick: [00:28:27] And if you want to go into some movies with some very safe black people, then I think you can go into the help, you know, or you’re talking about just Mersiades getting figures years ago when Malcolm X Selma White people love Martin Luther King. All right. That’s good. That’s a that’s a going watch. Yeah, I love it.

Jerrod: [00:28:49] I was going to say Selma, Selma and Malcolm X be a good double feature. There you go. Yeah, so you get you can you can get a little bit of of a variety there in those two. No, actually that answer is perfect. That’s exactly what to hear. And truthfully, I mean I mean, as as maybe infantile as it seems, I think those movies are actually good for us. Like, you know, saying like I will say as a white male watching movies like that does make me more empathetic. I mean, I know that it’s dramatized. I know that that is not like, you know, doctorate level study of the issues we’re dealing with. But it makes me think differently. It helps me to think differently. It helps me to go, wow, really that really happened. Like that really happened.

Jerrod: [00:29:30] Like I’m thinking of Selma and I’m thinking of like like the white priest from Boston who comes down, is being killed, is like really that happened. Like that kind of stuff happened. I mean, and I know once again but looking through their eyes once again, I know I’m identifying with the white guy in the movie, but it’s the white guy in the movie. I’m like, whoa, OK, wow. Then look at what they’re doing to these kids. I’m like, these, you know, those kids are kids like that as a child anyway. So as infantile as it may seem, I think that stuff helps. And it’s once again stretching out your comfort zone. I mean I mean, they’re going to watch that. I’m going to watch Thunder basketball. So they watch a little bit of something, you know, out of your comfort zone.

Jerrod: [00:30:05] OK, Derrick, I’ve got more stuff, but we are out of time. So do we get to go for. No, I’ve got three and four still there. I know we only need one or two. I’ve got two more ideas that I want to run past you, but I think we’re out of time. I mean, we got taking notes.

Derrick: [00:30:19] I’m like, what’s three and four?

Jerrod: [00:30:20] I mean, you know, I should I should I throw three and four out there? Now we’re going to talk about. But should I just tease it and then we’ll revisit it later. Is that what you want to do on. OK, here’s my three and four. Number three, try something. OK, now. And I wanted to get in your story. I want to get in your story like you’re practicing Ramadan. You’re in the middle of practicing Ramadan right now with your fiancee. We can’t even get in that story. Don’t tell me. Don’t don’t say don’t say no. I know you won’t talk about it. You can’t. But there you go once again, Derrick, who is a Christian, is practicing Ramadan with your Islamic friends. Is that is that phraseology? Am I. Yeah, I say that properly or something like that. Observe observing. OK, thank

Derrick: [00:30:56] You. Celebrate.

Jerrod: [00:30:57] Ok, ok. All right. Cool. There you go. That’s it. So try something is what I was throwing out there. All right. So that was number three. And number four, get off social media. That is my that is what I going to say. If you want to create safe spaces, you should and we can really break it down. It’s about monitoring our social media, really. But honestly, get off social media. And I think it’s just reinforcing a lot of your probably negative ideas anyway. But we’ll talk about that later. I know. Look at your grunts and groans. Tell me you want to say something, but you can’t. We’re not counting. Not today. Not today. But those are the ideas. We’ve got lots more that we can impact, obviously.

Jerrod: [00:31:34] I mean, this is a this is a I start to say a four hundred year conversation before talking about the history of man. It’s actually probably about a six thousand year conversation. So we’re not going to solve it. All right here. But I do appreciate your thoughts. You’re an author. You’re a speaker. Where can I buy your books? Where can I check out your stuff? If I want to if I’m going to learn more from Derrick, where should I go right now if I’m listening this podcast?

Derrick: [00:31:58] Yeah, definitely. I think if you want to read the books, which are not on race, but they’re more about storytelling and building teams, you can go to Amazon. And the first book is Small Teams. Big story in the second book is My Life of List. Those are both the type of those index with those you’ll find those in Amazon if you would love to have me out and to have this conversation or maybe leave your folks, I’d say reach out to your parents. If leadership, dotcom, we have folks there that are willing to have that conversation will show up with bells and whistles and there’d be some chance for trust there because we’re safe.

Jerrod: [00:32:33] There you go. Oh, shameless plug check paradigmshiftleadership.com for you to bring in Derrick to help your organization with any leadership issue, but specifically if it’s about racial tension or cultural diversity in the workplace or just creating safe spaces. He’s the master. He’s the best. Derrick, thanks as always, buddy. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, think I’m ready to have another conversation with Derrick. I feel like that we need to get finished. We only really cover two of the four.

Ang: [00:33:10] Yeah, you said the last two, so that’s good. But yeah, I didn’t even get to go into it. And I

Jerrod: [00:33:14] Believe them. I mean, I still all of them, you know, start local, learn more, try something, get off social media. I mean, I don’t want to get on a soapbox, but I do think we should all get off social media more. That would be good. Now what? In and of itself. But I’ll save that for another day because we didn’t really dive into it. But I want to focus on this one. I started the podcast by saying, if you feel like a bystander is sometimes what you and I both admit that we do, we are neither victim nor killer here. What do we do, though? It really is start local, start small, do something different today.

Jerrod: [00:33:45] And in learning more, I mean, I admit it. I’m not ready to read white fragility. I know I’m not what like I said, that’s. But there is I have some recommendations and I want you to give your personal recommendations. What is something right now I think that Learn More is an awesome next step. If you take nothing away from this podcast. I mean, because Derik in the interview in its entirety and if you haven’t checked that out, you could check that out. It paradigm shift from dotcom, because some of the stuff it’s cut out doesn’t make the actual airwaves.

Jerrod: [00:34:15] He shared that there’s a lot of pressure on him as a black man, especially an outspoken black man, to answer all these questions all the time. Like like sometimes I’m starting small. I’m like, you know what? I’m going to ask Derrick how he feels about this and have this gigantic conversation. And Derrick’s like, I’m having this gigantic conversation every day because I am the outgoing black man in your life. So. Wow. So I thought, OK, I’m challenging myself then. Now what do we do? I want to take it upon myself, to educate myself and learn in some way. And I’ve watched a few documentaries and a few things I’d like to recommend. What’s your recommendation?

Ang: [00:34:50] A book that I have really liked and even just somebody I’ve kind of appreciated listening to on this topic as well is Austin Channing Brown. She’s a book called I’m Still Here. And it it just opened my eyes to what I was like wine to really before I grew up in a pretty diverse setting, honestly, really diverse church religious family.

Ang: [00:35:12] And so I don’t think I did this topic enough justices as much as I should have. And it wasn’t until I really listened to her story that I was like, wow, I, I do have, like, blinders. Like, I could have grown up in such a diverse area like I did and still have the blinders that I really huge blind spots that I really did have. And so I learned a lot of that through her story. I think she’s great. She’s on a lot of podcasts as well, especially in the last year or so. But I really like her. Her book I’m Still Here is awesome.

Jerrod: [00:35:39] Ok, I’m still here. So is that like a it’s not a novel in is it like a biography or firsthand accounts. Yeah.

Ang: [00:35:45] Yeah, yeah. OK, well I like that. Yep.

Jerrod: [00:35:48] Very, very novel. Not a novel. Well my two recommendations, No. One with the documentary thirteenth. Have you seen that.

Ang: [00:35:57] I no it’s a great things

Jerrod: [00:35:59] About it’s on Netflix or I think it’s still on Netflix typically easy to find. It’s really informative. I thought it was really well done. As someone who, you know, I like I like to consider myself at least fairly well educated or paying attention to the world around me. And I’m not a history buff, but I enjoy history and learning about different topics. And this was a lot of new stuff, especially thinking through where we are today, moving from basically the civil war to now. Why are we not further what happened in the past? It’s like why, you know, I don’t know.

Jerrod: [00:36:34] You know, growing up, I did not grow up in a very diverse place opposite of you. I did not grow up in diversity. One of the most challenging things this was circulating on Facebook sometime ago. And it was like, how old were you when you had your first black teacher? How old were you when you had your first black teacher?

Ang: [00:36:49] I want to say it was second grade.

Jerrod: [00:36:52] Wow. Second grade.

Ang: [00:36:53] Ok, yeah. I mean, I was like young though when I had my Black Sunday school teachers. Oh, wow. I can’t even remember. I think I just grew up real. But but yeah. But a grade school, a school teacher, second grade.

Jerrod: [00:37:05] Ok, my answer. Never, never, not once one. I have never had a black teacher. OK. Yeah. Or Sunday school either. Nothing. I have never had a black teacher in any regard. So things like that I think are fascinating questions. Once again, we talked about unconscious bias last week. That’s not wrong. It’s not wrong of me to not have black teachers. I cannot control that. I’ve never had a black teacher. That’s not. Is it wrong of me? Right. But it is interesting to think about. Well, then how does that affect my viewpoint? Yeah. How does that affect my bias? How does that affect the way I encounter the world? It certainly does. And like you said, you just said it. Hey, even growing up in a fairly diverse community, a diverse church group, you still had blinders on.

Jerrod: [00:37:46] Well, yeah, I certainly have had blinders on. Thirteenth is really cool for us who grew up with not just blinders, but just complete, you know, a blindfold on, not even not even knowing what’s going on. You’re saying like. Yeah. So that kind of stuff like, yeah, you just not splendors of life. So my recommendation 13, it’s really educational, really informative, really cool to think about. Cool, like it’s a really fun, lighthearted documentary. It’s not. But it is an interesting both historical perspective and current policy. What’s happening? Really cool. That’s my recommendation. And we send the podcast. But you’ve got to read Just Mercy. Have you read Just Mercy. 

Ang: I haven’t. 

Jerrod: You’ve got to read it. I just I just told The World on Edge. I just told the world to read it and my co-host hasn’t even read it. Come on.

Ang: [00:38:36] Come on. I didn’t know you were going to tell the world this

Jerrod: [00:38:38] Is the Good Leader podcast, not the shabby leader. Come on,

Ang: [00:38:42] I’ll get it. I’m actually looking for a new book. We’ve got to get on the same page. It’s going to be on my it’ll be in my car. I’ve literally you great. Now you promise? OK, we’re going to just mercy, of course.

Jerrod: [00:38:53] Just mercy. You haven’t heard of just mercy.

Ang: [00:38:55] I’m on it. I’m be so honest. I really haven’t. I would like to I could lie and just be like, oh my gosh, it was so good

Jerrod: [00:39:02] You could live. But you want to do that. Come on. You talk about you’re trying

Ang: [00:39:05] To be good leaders. Yeah.

Jerrod: [00:39:06] Be a good leader. OK, just mercy. I’m not going to judge you for that. I’m not going to judge you for not knowing what this critically acclaimed book is and major motion picture. And last year, in June of twenty twenty, Amazon made it free for everyone to watch. I’m not going to invest in this. I’m not going to say you’re living under a rock. And I’m not going to ask if you have taken the blinders off that you so aptly said you had it.

Ang: [00:39:26] Well, I didn’t say I took all of them off. Well, I take a lifetime. I live under a rock and I knew about it. But I have to say, I was actually living under a rock I had in the start, literally. Yeah. Yeah, I was I was in the start of that year. It was I remember right around the time covid hit, I had decided I was like getting off social media and technology like entirely. This was even before. Good timing else have I. Yeah. Yeah I know. But I had like made this, I promised myself that I would that I would keep it like that all the way until June, that I just wouldn’t go back then. I mean, George Floyd, so many things blew up. I realized No.

Ang: [00:40:05] One, that I have never watched the news I think ever in my entire life, because that is the only other place I could have gotten information. And we don’t even. Yeah, yeah. We don’t even have, like, the news, like we don’t have cable. So I didn’t have that. And I wasn’t on like social media or doing anything with technology. I actually felt so ignorant to. I was like, I have no idea what’s going on. I was like, do you see this is like I, I actually this is another conversation for another day. But I really was like, man, you are really living under a rock when you decided that to yourself. So I apparently even missed an incredible resource that was on Amazon.

Jerrod: [00:40:39] Twenty twenty was quite the year. I know you don’t know what happened. Twenty twenty was pretty traumatic for the rest of us.

Ang: [00:40:44] I kind of I,

Jerrod: [00:40:45] I really honestly you’re kind of echoing I’m not going to make money too much because one of the four things was get off social media that you should limit your social media time. It can really mess with you or it could just help you. Ignorance is bliss. So you’re just living in the twenty twenty, twenty twenty. A lot happened. Google it up. What happened in twenty twenty. It started with Australian wildfires and went downhill from there.

Ang: [00:41:06] Gosh it did start. Wow. I forgot and all the other things of twenty twenty. I actually forgot about that. That’s Feltenstein.

Jerrod: [00:41:11] That was just the beginning sister. Yeah. You know it was, it went downhill from there in all seriousness then Just Mercy it is a book and forgive me I do not know the author. Actually the author plays a really cool role. He’s interviewed a lot in that thirteenth documentary. Anyway, he’s a he is an attorney and he started out fighting for people who are on death row and wrongfully convicted or just not even their cases being heard. Really, it’s really incredible stuff. There’s another documentary on Netflix that’s called I think the Innocence Files. That’s about this about these cases that have been overturned. Now, that’s fascinating on many when you want to go down a rabbit trail. May I talk about wrongful incarceration? Oh, my gosh. It’s just I. I’m staggered by it. That’s that. I’m like, oh, my gosh.

Jerrod: [00:41:52] And that’s something that my family we’re very fortunate. I don’t I don’t really have any one of my family that’s ever dealt with legal issues, any sort of criminal charges. But oh my gosh, I just can’t imagine the helplessness that you’re just going, OK, I’m just convicted. What do I do? And I just there’s literally nothing to do. Well, no, you’re in bars and you’re stuck and no one’s listening to you. And because of the color of your skin or because of the amount of money in your bank account and specifically probably a combination of those, no one cares. This gentleman man, I hate that. I don’t know his name. It’s awesome. So the movie stars Michael B. Jordan and Jamie Fox, it’s a really good. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, act like, you know, a way to act like, you know. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Just Mercy. Why didn’t you say so.

Ang: [00:42:35] Oh fun fact about me. I’m, I’m terrible with names like movie names. People names us around here. I always like quote movie names. That would be um like I couldn’t even if at Finding Nemo. That’s the only thing that’s going to come to my mind. You just said that the storyline was like, oh yeah, I feel a little better about it now that actually that I know this good. I know what the title was lost. It’s OK. That’s that’s the movie.

Jerrod: [00:43:02] The movie is really good, and if you’re not going to be anything else, check out the movie. It’s a good, entertaining movie, but the book, like most things, the book is better than the movie. And the book has more stories. The movie focuses on this one gentleman story. Well, I’m not doing very well names either. I think his name was Walter, something I can’t remember last names for something

Ang: [00:43:18] I can’t judge.

Jerrod: [00:43:19] But the book shares a lot of stories from a lot of backgrounds. So it’s a cool book in a lot of regards. It’s not just it’s not just about race. It’s about a lot of stuff that we’re looking at in society. And race is just kind of at the center of it. But all that being said, those are my recommendations. So good. Now what what are we going to do? I hope that you educate yourself in some way. Watch one of these movies. If I’m going to go in ascending order of difficulty, watch Just Mercy. It is a two hour blockbuster film, and it’s really, really helpful to let you see something in a new way. If you’re going to move up from there. I would encourage you to check out the Netflix documentary that 13th. It’s once again, it’s a couple of hours. You’re just watching it, though. And then if you are reader, check out these books on us again. What was your book called? I’m Still Here. Is that right?

Ang: [00:44:12] Yep. Yep. I’m still here by Austin training ground.

Jerrod: [00:44:14] I’m still here. And my recommendation was Just Mercy, the book. So those are recommendations. I hope that they are helpful. Get out there and do something tech. The one thing to not be a bystander, you’re not changing the world. You’re just taking that next step. You’re taking the first step. So go out there and be a good leader.