E2 • Can You Be a Friend & a Boss? with Amber Day

May 3rd, 2021

“Can you be a friend and a boss?” It’s an age-old question.

Today we discuss how to maintain healthy boundaries while at the same time being friends with those you lead.

Leading this way will cause your company culture to thrive, boost productivity, and increase the overall buy-in from team members.

Why? People are willing to go the extra mile for places that truly value who they are as individuals.

It must be genuine though! Otherwise, it’ll do more harm.

Creating this type of culture requires intentionality that when successfully navigated creates teams unlike any other.

Want to Hear Our Full-Conversation with Amber Day?


For more information about Paradigm Shift & growing your company culture send us a message at info@paradigmshiftleadership.com

Full Episode Transcript (auto-generated errors may occur)

Jerrod Murr (00:38):

Morning, ladies and gentlemen, or good afternoon or good evening. Thank you for joining the good leader podcast, where we are striving to be good leaders today. Can you be a friend and boss? That’s the topic. Can you be a friend and boss, maybe in good leader fashion. We should throw the word good in front of both of those now it’s can you be a good friend and a good boss simultaneously. Now let’s use the word boss loosely today. If you are listening to this on your drive, on your run at home at work, wherever your earbuds are plugged in, this boss, verbiage goes to all overseers cannot be a friend and a good leader, a good parent, a good supervisor, a good whatever area in which you oversee other humans. Can you have this dual role of friend and boss? We’re going to dive in with a great conversation later with Amber Day, who has worked with me for several years now.

Jerrod Murr (01:36):

And she has worked in many capacities actually, and she is one of the world’s greatest connectors. So if there’s anyone who could actually maintain that balance of having a good rapport as both a boss and a human, a person, a friend, if you will, it would be everyday. So I’m fascinated to hear her perspective and you know, hopefully she doesn’t write me over the coals too much. Hopefully she doesn’t say, well, Jerrod, you’re actually terrible at this. I don’t even know why you have a podcast. Get off of here. No one should ever listen to you. You’re a terrible friend and an awful boss on just a good question. Isn’t it. Can you be a good friend and a good boss simultaneously? It’s it’s tough. I think some people think no, some people draw some hard fast lines.

Jerrod Murr (02:13):

Absolutely. It’s a great question. I can’t wait to hear what Amber is going to say.

Jerrod Murr (02:17):

I’m very excited to hear what Amber is going to say before she says, I got something to say to you on it. I say the answer is a resounding yes, yes you can. But I didn’t always think that way. I kind of have really come around to this actually early on in ministry. Actually, my first job coming out of high school actually was at a church. And so I was a children’s pastor immediately and into all the college. I was a, we didn’t even use the term interns back then. I mean, I’m that old, I’m old enough where it was just like, I was just, you know, just a kid that they hired sometimes and kind of, sometimes I got paid most of the time. It was like, I got free potluck, you know, from the grandmas in church. That was my pay. But that was okay. Cause I was a young bachelor college kid, just you know, working in the highways and the hedges. But in that capacity

Jerrod Murr (03:00):

I was taught by my peers and leaders, mentors at the time, people who’ve been in ministry longer than me. That basically you are serving this congregation. And then when you move on, you completely like move on. Like you almost like cut those people out of your life so that you could be a good pastor, a good leader to the next group of people. And so that whomever is leading your previous group. You’re not encroaching on their territory. And I was like, okay, when I was taught that, that, that makes sense. Like, you don’t want to interfere. You don’t want to be, you know, you don’t want to be a hindrance to people. You certainly don’t want to be a, you know, a source of comparison. Cause there’s like, Oh, you’re not my last, you know, my last boss was better. My last youth pastor was better, whatever, but I distinctly remember this one moment.

Jerrod Murr (03:45):

So when I was about 25, my wife and I moved to Oklahoma City to start serving in another church and it was great. We left on healthy terms left on good terms. You know, sometimes when you leave a job, it can be really ugly, you know, with the team, the people, your boss really ugly, or it can be really healthy. I’m very fortunate that this was a really healthy leave. I love the people. They loved me. It was great. So that’s good. But then it’s like, okay, then I’ve got this little voice in the back of my head saying, but if you’re going to be a good leader, respect the next leader, don’t try to interfere with their leadership. Basically cut those people out of their, your life. And I was like, okay, so I want to do that. And then I distinctly remember this one day, Ang, I got a call from a young man from my previous job, previous church.

Jerrod Murr (04:30):

And he called me and he talked to me and we just chit chat, just kind of a catching up thing. And he was, you know, kind of down in the dumps, nothing major, no major scary, anything just need some encouragement. And I remember getting off that phone call and I was like, okay, should I have taken that phone call? Should I have directed him to his new pastor? What should I have done there? And I prayed about it. So if you’re the praying type like me, maybe you pray about things like this. If you’re not, that’s totally okay. But I prayed about it. And in praying it, I thought this just doesn’t feel right. Like the kid needed to talk to me. So I didn’t bash anybody else. I wasn’t ugly about anybody else. I didn’t elevate myself. I was just talking to the kid in that moment. I was like, no, I can do this. I can maintain healthy boundaries, but simultaneously be a friend, even though I’m not necessarily in the position of leader anymore, directly, I’m still mentoring this young person. And so that really drew a line in the sand for me and shifted my mindset. And now I believe that is not just a spiritual aspect. It is an everyday aspect, no matter what your job is.

Jerrod Murr (05:32):

So I have some quick takeaways here before we actually interview Amber. I got some, I got some thoughts. So I’m going to give you the thoughts on just, I want you to tell me, you can tell me if you think I’m totally off my rocker. If you’re like, okay, Jerrod, that resonates.

Andrea Hyre (05:43):

You know I will.

Jerrod Murr (05:44):

I know you will. You’re, you’re a hardcore Enneagram eight, not afraid to tell me that I’m wrong. Okay. So first off the foundation of this is do you want to be like, can you be a good friend and a good boss?

Andrea Hyre (05:56):


Jerrod Murr (05:57):

Do you want to be good at both? Do you want to be good at neither? Do you even care? You’ve got to figure that out because is it a risk? Is it hard work? Yes. The answer is there are. Yes, because I think like anything probably, if you were like, you know, Nope, I’m just wearing this overseer employer manager hat.

Jerrod Murr (06:13):

So it’s very clear cut. I don’t worry about feelings. I don’t worry about, I’m worried about production. I’m worried about goals. I’m worried about quotas and I’m sorry, you’re not cutting the mustard. I’m not your friend. I’m your boss. Boom. So that’s pretty easy actually. And that seems easier. I don’t know. I haven’t engaged in that type of leadership in a while, but it seems easier. I can see the appeal. It would be awesome. Honestly, if I didn’t care about you as a person Ang, it’d be like, you know, Hey, do better. You’re fired. So, and so is there a risk? Is it messy? Can it get emotional? Can you get your feelings hurt? Will other people get their feelings hurt sometimes? Yeah, but here’s the, my twist, Ang, I think you’re gonna like this in preparation for today, I realized this is called the good leader podcast.

Jerrod Murr (06:55):

It’s not called the efficient leader podcast. It’s not called the convenient leader podcast. So in really wrestling with the topic, I’ve determined, is it a risk? Is it hard work? Is it messy? Yes. Yes, yes. But it also, it is also good. I have found it to be good. I have found it to long-term. This is the way that I believe we should operate as humans. This is good. And then really it’s not so much… You have to determine, I want to be a friend and a boss or I want to be a good friend, a good boss. Actually, let me take some pressure off of everybody listening. You don’t have to decide that actually just be a good leader. And then you will have some friends at work. And some people you won’t be friends with at work, but that’s okay. You will be, have a really great connection with some people and you will have a lesser connection with others.

Jerrod Murr (07:44):

But if you’re a good leader, friendship will inevitably happen. That’s the point. It’s like those people who don’t have friends at work, I honestly go, you’re probably not a very good leader. You might be an efficient manager. You might be a very effective goal achiever. And that’s fine once again, if that’s what you want to be fine. But I think most people listening to the podcast are listening because they have a heart because they’re like, I want to be a good leader. I want to be a good person. I want, if we walk away from this job, 20, 30 years from now, we’re thinking in decades, not days. I mean, we’re thinking in the future, not just the now I’m thinking in eternity, not just temporary, I’m looking at like, I want Ang whenever she leaves this job, which you’re not allowed to leave. But if you ever leave this job, I want you to say to others, you know, Jerrod was a good leader and a good friend.

Jerrod Murr (08:27):

We had a good connection there. It doesn’t matter. If in the moment we achieved every goal we ever set, we were effective in everything we do, but it’s the long game. So here are my three quick hits and I know that we’ll go, we’ll do the end wrap up. But before we get into this interview, I want to frame it with, if you’re listening to this, here’s what I think you can do to be a good leader. And consequently probably be a good friend in the process, be consistent. This is the thing you have to be consistent with people. I really, really hate it. When good leadership is turned into a synonym for some sort of personality trait, especially like this, like be a good friend. Well that means you have to be charming or charismatic or funny or whatever. That’s just not true on. That’s not true. Like good leadership comes in all forms. You’re gonna hear that on this podcast all the time. So it’s not about personality, but you have to be consistent. You can’t be a boss. That’s like hardcore numbers, numbers, numbers, deadlines, deadlines, deadlines, whatever day one. And then the next day day to be like, Oh no, I want to be everybody’s friend. And I care how you feel. And then day three, like back to the chopping block, that’s inconsistent. And you’re just gonna confuse people.

Jerrod Murr (09:35):

And actually that type of leadership, if you’re just like, you know, once a week, once a month, trying to be a good person to people. So they, they see your soft side or they think you care that strategy’s not going to work because honestly, it’s going to flip the script. They’re going to trust you less. Very true. You know, they’re going to just, you’re listening. Cause they’re going to go, okay, wait a minute. He’s just playing me. She’s just manipulating me. She’s just manipulating me. And honestly, servant hood is leadership and leadership without servanthood is just manipulation. And if you’re doing that strategically, you just manipulate people. So be consistent, be consistent in your style and be consistent who you are. So number two, I think you’re like this one, I’m gonna throw you this one. And then I want you to give me your feedback. Cause I felt like when I wrote this down, I was like, okay, if there was one, takeaway would probably be this one. I like it. Okay. Be a human, not a machine.

Andrea Hyre (10:20):

Hmm. Okay.

Jerrod Murr (10:21):

All right. Let that marinate for a second. I know. You’re like, okay, Jerrod. Fine. I know, honor honor is going to be like, okay. Explain that to me. Tell me what you mean by that before I tell you if I agree,

Andrea Hyre (10:28):

I was, I was going to ask that.

Jerrod Murr (10:34):

Alright. Here’s what I mean by it. Last couple of decades, 10 years, especially in football. They’ve got all these charts. Now, if you don’t watch football, that’s totally. Okay. You’ll see. Over on the sideline, they’ve just got all these humongous, like laminated charts that these coaches are constantly referring to looking at. They’re watching. So they’ve got like every possible scenario scripted out, right? It’s like, okay, it’s third and one on our own 20 with less than two minutes left, did we go for it? Do we go for it? Do we kick a field goal? Do we all these things? But my point is, they’re very scripted. They’re to the point where now it’s where it’s almost like they’re taking a lot of the human element out of coaching. And honestly, it’s safer. I’ve heard a lot of us do a lot of sports talk and it’s a default answer that even if the play doesn’t go right, they have a safety net. It’s like, well, you know, this, the numbers say that we should have punted. And so I punted. So even if, even if the world is saying, you know, it’s like, well, we lost the game. They have this safety net. So I think that happens in leadership where it’s like, the safer bet is honestly to be robotic, to be like, tell me what’s going on. I mean, I just got out of an HR seminar for like four hours this week

Jerrod Murr (11:38):

To all my HR friends out there. God bless you. I am praying for you.

Jerrod Murr (11:45):

But I was like, man, So should I say this? Should I not say this? And some things, I get it. I want to be safe. But otherwise I’m like, I’m going to listen to your problems. I’m going to hear it. I’m going to be human. So in other words, it’s like you were late. I’m going to be a human and try to understand why you’re late. That’s good leadership to me now. I still don’t want you to be late. You still have to try to be consistent here. Let’s figure this out. But it’s, let’s figure this out together as humans and win or lose as a team, not just go you’re late. You’re fired. Well, wait a minute. Maybe if I wasn’t show so robotic, if I didn’t just go buy this play call, I may be losing a really good team player because I’m not paying attention, human, human.

Andrea Hyre (12:21):


Jerrod Murr (12:21):

Alright. So that’s what I mean. If you want to be a good leader, if you want to be a friend and a boss, you just approach the workplace, approach your leadership with these things. And I believe you will make some friends. You’ll make some deep connections, but you will walk away with everyone. Even if they’re your friends, quote, unquote friends or not, they will say they were an approachable boss. They were an understanding leader. They listened to me. It’s be consistent. Be human, not a machine. And number three, show who you are, show who you are now. What I mean by that is you don’t have to go around telling your deep dark secrets to everybody. No, no, no, no, no. Let’s have some restraint, but once again, playing off of this, be a human. It’s not about personality. I think people are intimidated when you’re like be friends, be approachable, be this type of person.

Jerrod Murr (13:08):

And you think, okay, I’ve got to have some sort of really good connection with everybody. What if I’m not that well, just show who you are. So here’s a good litmus test. Can your team describe you? Can they even describe you? How would they describe you if it’s like, if they’ve worked with you for a year and they don’t know anything about you, other than they are my boss, they are direct there. I don’t really know. Well, tell me what she likes. I’m not, what do you mean? What she likes? Like we know what outside of work. What’s something that she likes, like, does she have any hobbies? Is she into something? Like, tell me about her personality. Is she, you know, I was like, well you mean like, I don’t know. She’s pretty direct, pretty dry, pretty. And that’s that’s once again, is that a risk?

Jerrod Murr (13:46):

Yeah. Can people make fun of me sometimes because of my idiosyncrasies? Absolutely. Do I sometimes maybe talk about sports too much maybe, but people know I like sports. The fact that people can go, well, you know, he’s kinda nerdy and I bet he’s seen that new star Wars and I kinda like star Wars and that’s a connection point. The point is you have to work at connecting with people and the vulnerability by sharing first will draw people in. That’s how you become approachable by sharing. Hey, I went to see this movie then I’m not, I’m not talking about like once again I was in the HR seminar. I’m not talking about like, you know, in professional performance review where we’re having this very serious talk, all of a sudden be like, well now it seems to be a good time to crack some jokes and let you know who I am like, you know, onto this may be your last day. How was star Wars? No, no, no, no, no. I’m talking about in the breaks, in the lunches, in the in-betweens when you’re walking in the hallways, it’s not just the ad that report are we finished. It’s also not just like, tell me about yourself. That’s a good question by the way. But it’s also, let me tell you about me. Let me connect, let me work to connect by being approachable and sharing those things. So yeah, that is

Jerrod Murr (14:52):

How you be a good leader. A good friend. I think that you can do it. So we’re going to jump into this interview, but I want to give as a summary here, don’t be afraid to be a friend and a boss. Don’t be afraid to be printed to boss. Let’s hear what Amber has to say in this interview.

Jerrod Murr (15:25):

Ladies and gentlemen, this interview is going to be the most fun that enters your ears today. That’s exactly what it’s going to be. Amber Day, Amber Day is here. Amber, tell the good folks at home, who’s listening to the good leader podcast. Give me 30 seconds of your bio, your work experience, who you are today. We’re talking about, can you be a friend and boss? And so it makes sense to understand who in the world you are and why are you on this podcast?

Amber Day (15:50):

Well, that makes sense. Honestly, I was asking that same thing. I think I’m a great leader, but I settled for good leader. I said, yes, I will do good leader until great leader. Gives me a call. I’m on this podcast because Jerrod Murr is my boss and one of my closest friends and a plot twist or spoiler alert, I should say the answer is yes, you can be a friend and a boss. I think you should. I think it’s actually required. I like it. My name is Amber Day, Amber Renee Day, if you will, if you’d like something to tease me about my middle name, bronze with my last name, I think that’s really important if I get too confident, just go ahead and remind me that my parents were very braid and I have to put that forever. I went to East central high school in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Amber Day (16:27):

I then after that went to a pretty Rocky semester of law school. I like to call it a year, depending on who’s asking my professors would probably say it was about a quarter of a semester. I’m going to go with what the bill said. And it was a semester of law school. I left there. I was very talented at law school and I hated it. And so I took the debt and I left. I came back in the middle of the recession 2008 and it was an accountant where I met somebody who was associated with paradigm shifts, the company I work for now. That is how I got associated with Jerrod. A lot of travel in between there. A lot of ministry work stuff I won’t bore you with and I should really want to know it, but that’s the long and short.

Jerrod Murr (17:06):

I appreciate it. I was already getting bored. So you stopped at a good time.

Amber Day (17:09):

Honestly, we say couple juicy stuff for the end,

Jerrod Murr (17:11):

So. Okay, good. Well, the reason Amber is here is yes, we actually do have a working relationship. I am Amber’s direct supervisor in her current role and she has a wealth of experience in other roles. So I want to have this conversation because I get asked this a lot. Can you be a friend and a boss? Do you have to check the friendship at the door? You know like, well, if you’re really going to be a good leader, you can’t really associate in certain ways with people, you’ve got to set some strong boundaries. You’ve got to know the lines can get Brendan bot boost says, Amber, boom. Well, let’s start with Amber is also a boss.

Jerrod Murr (17:50):

So she’s on the podcast talking to me because she directly reports to me, but she has people who directly report to her in this job and other jobs. And she has had other bosses. So we want to talk about, can you do it? So this is where everyone listening out there who has someone that you either report to, or that whom directly reports to you. So this is pretty much everyone. Amber will kind of take the angle of, well as the employee. These are some things I’ve noticed, good things, bad things. Nobody’s perfect. This isn’t the perfect leader podcast, but it’s the good leader podcast. And from my side of the desk, here’s some things that I’ve tried to do successfully unsuccessfully. And we’ll see where this goes. So Amber, when you hear, can you be a friend and boss? You said yes. Instinctively even with, you know, spoilers. Yes. What’s the biggest key to having a friendship and this professional boss relationship. What’s the big, big key.

Amber Day (18:46):

Yeah. I think for me you have to be all in or all out. So I lean very much in the all land. If you’re going to be a friend and a boss, you’ve got to really commit. It’s not, Oh yeah. We’re going to do some niceties around the water cooler or I’ll tell a little bits and pieces, but not own up to mistakes I made all in or all out. So I have had some bosses where we’ve been all out and that’s okay. It’s strictly professional, but I personally did not enjoy those jobs nearly as much. They weren’t nearly as fulfilling. So yeah, I think the key is radical honesty. You just have to be honest,

Jerrod Murr (19:15):

Honest with yourself first. That’s where I think the radical honesty comes in. I like that you said that you gotta be all in or all out. I will say in my experience, it does seem that the universal idea is that if you do try to broaden and deepen the relationship in some way with the people that you work with, it can create a more holistic culture to say the least and maybe a better working environment.

Amber Day (19:37):

Yeah. And I think that pursuing a friendship does make, like you said, a much more holistic culture, a lot of the leadership books will say, just like you said, you don’t want to get too in the personal business. Cause you do have to have a corrective conversation. But I mean, I think that’s just a really fear-based and they say, don’t be friends. What if you have to have this conversation? Well, okay. Maybe 2% of my job is a tough conversation. You want me to base my whole way that I operate at work around a 2% potential instead of around the 98% of, I want to encourage, I want to uplift. I want to focus on people over numbers. You know? So yeah. I mean, to me when possible, I think it is invaluable to be friends. Yeah.

Jerrod Murr (20:13):

I don’t know how to operate otherwise. Right. So it may be more personality driven than anything else. So I would say if we were going to give any highlights or tips here, don’t be afraid of your own inclination. If you are the type of leader who is inclined to have different conversations than contractual work, if your personality lends itself to like, well, I want to get to know you. I would like to connect with you. I would like you to consider me a friend, then go with that. I was also, as most of our listeners know I was a youth pastor I am an assemblies of God minister still as a credential holder. And even in that role, it was almost like, well, you can’t be friends. It was kinda like my dad. It’s like, Hey, if you’re going to be this type of authority, you’re not really friends.

Jerrod Murr (20:56):

And so I, I basically fought my own personality cause I was like, well, I, I’m not really supposed to like be friends. I have to be this authority. So, and even at work, I think we can get into this. Like, well, I don’t know if I should do that because I don’t want to show that I’m playing favorites. There may be good intentions with it. Like I don’t want to show favorites. I don’t want people to think that I’m treating people unfairly or anything like that. I just say, you know what you said, radical candor. Be that with yourself and don’t fight your own personality. And if your personality lends itself, you can have permission. So the title of this episode is can you be a friend and boss? I think the answer is yes!

Amber Day (21:30):

Can you not, honestly?

Jerrod Murr (21:32):

I don’t know that I could. That’s why I say, it’s my personality now, how then do we create this? Cause I’m going to put a word. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but your approachability, you described like when you have this good relationship, it seems like you are creating an approachability, which I think is maybe even a better word than friend, because I think a good leader would say, well, okay, friends. I don’t know if I want to be friends with everyone. What does that mean? Are we like Facebook friends? Cause I’ve got like 4,000 of those or like best friends where we’re sharing each other’s deepest, darkest secret. There’s a middle ground here where it’s like, okay, how approachable are you as a leader? And regardless of how much you want to be friends with everyone, I think many people would say, Oh, I want to be approachable. How do you create that thing? Cause you said be open, be honest, don’t be close fisted. How did your bosses that you were able to be open and honest with? How did they create that? Because I think many people listening go, I could never talk to someone like that or a leader is listening, going. I don’t even know how to create that. Yeah, they do it.

Amber Day (22:32):

I think it’s two ways. One, you have to initiate those conversations first. And so don’t just sit in your office and say, Hey, I’m really approachable. Why is nobody approaching me? Start with that. Like radical honesty as a leader has been so disarming to me, if you, you and pastor Matt are the two that I think of honestly, like I intentionally chose jobs before I left to work at city church. I’m like, I know the leadership I want to be under. I was under unhealthy leadership previously. The next job is less about my role and more about the leadership I’m under. And I’ve intentionally made that switch afterwards. So almost like this is something I’m just really passionate about. But the first one I would say is you have to initiate those conversations, lead with your vulnerabilities, lead with your things that you made a mistake on lead with whatever personal information you’re comfortable sharing.

Amber Day (23:11):

It’s like, Oh, Jerrod told me about his daughter’s birthday party. And he asked what the best part about the weekend was. Okay. You’re asking those conversations. You’re remembering you’re really bad at remembering the details. Hey, I thought I remembered, you said your daughter had a soccer game a couple of months. So how’d that go? It’s like, how do you remember that from a couple months ago? I think you can’t fake it. I mean, you have to want that relationship and you have to initiate it. And two, you have to do something with the feedback that you get. Once you build that friendship, if you have somebody that comes to you and say, Hey Jerrod, now that we’re friends, I feel like I can tell you the system we’re using. I think it needs to be tweaked. It’s causing some problems. If you say, well, one, if you say too bad, that’s how we’ve done it.

Amber Day (23:45):

Or I made that system and that’s how we as a company do it. Okay. Well, even though we have that friendship, you didn’t use the feedback, right? Or if you say, Oh yeah. Okay. That makes sense. I’ll take it into account. And then I realized, know I brought three different things to Jerrod. He said, okay, he seems approachable, but he’s done nothing with it. So is that building trust? Is that actual approachability or is it just trying to be kind and scared to have a car conversation? So I think initiating and then taking feedback seriously is really important.

Jerrod Murr (24:14):

I think that many people take conversations like this, or they go to a keynote workshop conference, read a book and go, okay, I should be more approachable. Hey Amber, let me know if I’m doing anything wrong, feel free. It’s an open door policy or I want feedback, tell me what’s happening. Okay, great. And they tell you, and it’s like, they never change. Are you even listening to me? And so it’s a great way that it’s one of those tipping points. It’s like, you’re asking me on the edge of a coin and how you handle that leader is actually going to build trust or break trust. If you listen to the VBAC, it builds trust big time. If you don’t, it’s probably going to break it even more. We started this conversation by saying, should you be a friend and a boss? You know, it’s kind of your personality and not totally debating that, but I will say a benefit of having a personal relationship with people and knowing them as people and being genuinely invested.

Jerrod Murr (25:04):

And let’s say being a friend, let’s use the term friend. If you’re friends with someone you’re believable in conflict resolution, I think believability is an underrated trait in leaders. Because most of the time, the horror stories that you hear about conflict resolution, or honestly the crap that you hear about conflict resolution strategy. And I say crap, 100% on purpose. It’s like the whole like compliment sandwich or strategies or like, you know, that’s just a bunch of crap. Like, here you go. If you’re listening to this well, yeah, if I’m sitting in crap, I know it. There you go. Quote of the day quote of the day. No, but seriously, if you have to use a formula to have a constructive conflict resolution conversation, you are starting at the wrong place. I’m sorry. It’s going to go bad. Right? It’s going to go bad. If you are bringing someone in saying, okay, I got to remember say something nice.

Jerrod Murr (25:55):

Then say something serious and bad and then say something nice. Again. You’re starting off on the wrong foot. It is not going to go well because people don’t believe it. So believability, like you’re saying, if someone knows, well, Sharon actually cares about me when things are good and when things are bad, he asks me how I’m doing when things are good and when things are bad. So when I have a conversation and I tell them, listen, you can be honest and share with me and your job’s on the line. There’s no question there. It’s not like, Oh, okay. Is this a trick? Like, you really mean that the what’s going on. Or if I say, listen, this is not going to affect anything, but I need you to be honest with me. I mean then people go, okay, then I know I can be on that.

Jerrod Murr (26:32):

Believability is a huge component that I think is often underrated, but here’s the thing. You don’t get believability from a book. You don’t get believability from a formula. That’s where human aspect matters. Like this, this time it does take time. It takes actual action. Listening to feedback, taking a responsibility for conversations, taking responsibility for your actions. So in the conflict resolution, it is not just about the moment. I think that’s what people kind of really overestimate like, well, I need to have a really serious talk. It’s like, actually you should have built trust over the last 364 days. That’s what you should have been doing because now you’re trying to really fix the problem in a one hour conversation that you have no wherewithal to accomplish it. So it’s interesting to me is we debate this a little bit, that I’m leaning more and more into. I’m kind of reassuring myself that it’s good to have these types of conversations repeatedly. So that in the moment it’s not just that, you know, huge, huge.

Amber Day (27:33):

I agree. And it’s one of those things. You don’t need it until you need it. And so it might seem like me I’m why am I tilling all of this ground to be friends with my employees or with my boss, this takes extra time. I really have some stuff I could get done. That’s productive, but you really see the fruits of that Wincott crisis. And the company happens and you have to rally together for a month and do overtime and all that you can ask a friend to do overtime. A stranger is a lot harder to say me and I don’t know what you’re dealing with. You walk in and out with your head down and I never talked to you, but Hey bill, was it, do you mind staying a little bit late today? We’ll build those minds saying because who are you, Amber?

Amber Day (28:06):

I haven’t seen you in four months and now you want to come and try and Oh, Hey Darryl, do you have anything going on tonight? Just wondering, Oh, by the way, can you stay late? That’s so transparent, right? Whenever you come and say, fill I, and this is a bummer. Like we had this thing happen. This account fell through. We’ve got to stay late tonight. I’ll get us a pizza. Do you mind saying, and we get ferment all the time. This is not a rare thing. A paradigm shift with the nature of what we do. There are bigger asks on occasion and people. I mean really usually very excited. They’re like, Oh, sure. Yeah, we’ll stick around. I don’t mind staying a little bit late. I believe in the company. I believe in the relationships. I believe in the vision. I just think that friendship, that organizational glue that really holds everything together. I mean, that’s just how you make it through the tough spots. We have very low turnover. And I think that has a lot to do with those relationships as well. Yeah, you’re right.

Jerrod Murr (28:50):

I love that phrase. Well, I love the phrase organizational glue and it’s this almost, almost like saying chemistry in sports, right? Like that team just has chemistry and these things may be, you can’t quantify them completely, but I’d like to try to quantify them a little bit. As we end this, we talked about a lot of different aspects here. But if we were to quantify a handful of tips, suggestions, things to do today, if you were looking at your supervisor or your a supervisor looking at let’s take that role. We’ve talked a lot about that in let’s say the supervisor, what would you tell them to be a good leader? Here are a few things you might want to try immediately. You’ve already given some stuff like you talked about, you know, work on having a good memory and actually asking people, being legitimately interested. But what are a few quick takeaways as we wrap up,

Amber Day (29:37):

I would say, get yourself an inside joke. You’re going to become friends with somebody, get yourself an inside joke. And you’re so good at it too. Just a little tongue in cheek while you’re talking and throwing something in a staff meeting that somebody knows like, okay, that was for me, that’s an inside joke. Those personalizing, those types of things. And again, it takes making the initiative. It takes becoming friends. First. You have to be good at making friends. That’s kind of a lost adult skill. I think. So have the courage to make the first move, get yourself an inside joke. And then yeah. I mean, I would say however much you are asking about personal. I don’t, I don’t, I was about to get this running, but I don’t want to say asking about personal stuff, but like do more, take it a step farther.

Amber Day (30:16):

You can never be too good of friends. I don’t think. And so if you think, Oh, I’m doing a pretty good job. We worked with somebody in the past. He said, Oh yeah, I go around and I pass these documents out to our staff. So yeah, I know my staff really well. Hey, that is kind of a, like I said, I know I’m sitting in crap when I’m in it or whatever it was. I can’t remember how eloquently, but like, Hey, I know you’re just asking about me because you’re handing me a document. Like don’t have an agenda and don’t try and find a way to make it look like you don’t have an agenda. Really don’t have an agenda. You have to care about the people being a leader is just a call to higher responsibility. You’re more responsible for the atmosphere. You’re creating more responsible for the culture you’ve got to till the hard ground.

Amber Day (30:52):

You don’t have a basketball team that gets on the court the first day they meet each other excellent chemistry. I think we think chemistry is this magical thing that just you accidentally have with somebody. And that’s true. You can have one-on-one chemistry randomly, but I mean, you are a master builder of chemistry on a team learned so much from that of just like, even if you don’t feel like being excited or, you know, making a joke that day, do the hard work till the ground. You’ve got to come in and you have to lead the team and not just in getting the numbers and results, but you lead in remembering names, making the inside joke, personalizing the work, making sure all of that just feels personal to your voice.

Jerrod Murr (31:29):

Here’s what I really liked that you said have an inside joke, as opposed to you didn’t describe a personality trait. You didn’t say be funny. Let’s just be candid. Some people are better at this naturally than others. That’s okay. Some people may naturally have some sort of charisma or connectability, but we have a quote we use at paradigm shift that friendship is an underrated skill. And if it is a skill, it means that I can learn and get better. We think of friendship as just a theory, but there is a skill. It can be slowed down and processed. And I said, I know I don’t want to act like I’m talking out to both sides of my mouth. I don’t like having the formula for the conflict resolution. But I do think in the big picture, you can have a formula of simple things. Like you’re saying genuinely care, try to remember elements of people’s lives, ask people questions, take those questions. One step further. That would be my tip. You said actually, you know, kind of personalize it or get to know more personal information, but that we’re not going to call HR. Well, the HR directors, all my friends in Sherm are really, are really getting nervous. When you talk, when Amber talks, it’s like just dive in, get to know all sorts of personal details. Really get in there, come on, really get in there. Scott let’s really come on. Really dive in. I would say

Amber Day (32:43):

That’s the first time I got that feedback. So

Jerrod Murr (32:46):

I receive it. I would phrase it, take it one step further from the surface level, instead of just saying, you know, Hey, hi, how’s everything going? How are your kids? Or whatever they say, Oh, it’s good. You know, busy? Or how was your weekend? Here’s a good example. How was your weekend? Oh, really busy. Okay. Nope. How was your beacon really busy. Oh, really? What were you up to once again? You’re not like prying for information, but you’re opening a door really busy. Well, you know, I had like five soccer games. Oh really? I didn’t know. Your kids played soccer. Oh yeah, yeah. Really into it. Now. How old are your kids again? Well they’re teenagers now. I’ve got a 13 year old and a 15. Year-Old okay. They both play soccer. Yep. They both play soccer. They’re both on club teams. They’re both. Once again, I’m just opening the door for one step one, step one step. I don’t have to be the world’s greatest conversation.

Amber Day (33:32):

Let me make a suggestion with that to Jerry, because it’s like I was saying early, you don’t need it until you need it. And so people know when you have an agenda and you come and start asking about soccer and then two days later it’s like, Oh, we fired somebody. We need you to absorb their job. It’s like, okay, that wasn’t real connection. Right. So I, I mean, like you said, this is really a skill and right out of college, I, and this is going to be so dorky, but just don’t ever use this against me, but I systemize my connection. And so like my first adult job out of college, if somebody told me their birthday, I put it on my calendar. Like, I’m going to make a point to remember your birthday. They don’t know what’s on my calendar, but it made me look good at remembering crap.

Amber Day (34:06):

Right? Or, Oh, I need to remind myself in two weeks to ask about that soccer game. Or I know that every Tuesday I’m going to walk around to these three people’s offices. Like if you just get too busy to care about it and you don’t need it until it’s too late. And so you’ve got to prioritize it and care about it when it seems to least important. If you’re not good at it, setting a really practical system in place that people don’t keep. I actually highly recommend not telling them that it’s a system, but like setting that in place to build those friendships in the beginning to not get lost in being new at a job or, Oh, I don’t know if they’re going to like me as a boss, like just ask the questions, work it in. I mean, make the time for it.

Jerrod Murr (34:42):

Hello? Hello. My name is my name is Amber or birthday so I could put it in my I need to put it in my Blackberry here.

Amber Day (34:50):

The birthday party. Oh, I did have a Blackberry. We’re so old.

Jerrod Murr (34:56):

Speaking of being old, can you please tell me your three favorite boots please? I would like to write them down and remember them. You’re important to me. You’re very important.

Amber Day (35:03):

Speaking of remembering things, I hear that you’re only a year or two away from being a protected class because of your age, Jerrod, is that true?

Jerrod Murr (35:10):

High, low blow, low blow. Well, that’s a good place to end on Amber nerdiness and my elderly status. Very good top. That really chilled video that sealed the deal. All right. Hey, we’re going to do the leadership mixtape. I’m going to ask you a quick set of questions. You’re going to answer rapid fire. Are you ready? Yes. Question number one. What should I read? Ooh. Okay.

Amber Day (35:38):

I would say way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson. Can I tell you right now is one of 10 books. Only four of them are out. They are 1300 pages. Each it is super nerdy and it’s actually really good leadership book. Okay. That’s all I’m going to say about it. It’s really nerdy. Don’t make me say anymore. It’s

Jerrod Murr (35:54):

Okay. Follow up. Are you being serious right now? Are you just trying to

Amber Day (35:57):

The answer I’d like to re answer. Oh, Simon Sinek, infinite game. There is that better for you?

Jerrod Murr (36:02):

Hey, the listeners know, they know don’t you make fun of it. Don’t you make better assignments. All right. Great answer. Great answer. I promise not, I never promised not to make fun of you actually talking about us. That were true. Question question. Number two, Amber. I’m very excited about what to read now. I’d like to know this is a good question. What should I start doing? I’m going to be a good leader. What’s something I should start doing.

Amber Day (36:28):

Write everything down.

Jerrod Murr (36:30):

Now. That is a great answer. Especially birthdays. People’s favorite food, their favorite color, their names. Write it all down. Put it in your Blackberry. All right. Number three.

Amber Day (36:41):

What else? This growth fix kit. If you’re going to be friends with your boss, my first tip, actually, I’d like to take it back. Your first tip is to grow thick skin. Okay. That’s what it is. Go on. Tell me your third question. Jerrod. I’m dropping bombs

Jerrod Murr (36:54):

Actually. Hey, write everything down is a great tip. Honestly, that is a really good tip with all sincerity. Great answer. I wish I would have written things down. You know, we interviewed the great David Allen and he says your head’s a terrible office. And if it is in your head, it does not care. It sounds like Amber Days, a leadership expert, just like David Allen. Cause I agree with both. What should I stop doing? What is something I should stop doing? Gosh.

Amber Day (37:15):

So I’m doing whatever you want. Bob Goff says, it’s a Thursday. You can quit anything. And that has been so free. Like it’s going to be different for everybody. Stop for me. It’s social media. But for, I don’t know, stop doing whatever you want. Whatever. Just tweet when you say, gosh, I hope she says this. Stop doing it. Stop working out. Stop eating healthy. Life’s too short. Easy next. Wow. I am killing it.

Jerrod Murr (37:37):

You are killing this paradigm shift. Ladies and gentlemen paradigm shift pays the bills for Amber and I. We do leadership training all across the globe and we have a huge emphasis on students. The first time Amber ever took the stage, actually it’s a paradigm. The Amber is what the people want. If people want honesty, they want transparency. The first time, this is a true story. Amber is a great speaker. Amber is a phenomenal speaker. She is an excellent communicator. She really is. She does a great job. She has a wonderful personality. She connects with an audience and she has dynamite content. If you’re looking for a keynote speaker, you should hire Amber Day through paradigm shift, paradigm shift, leadership.com.

Amber Day (38:13):

First time. However,

Jerrod Murr (38:15):

The first time I put Amber on a stage in front of these kids with a program to help them get through school. She says, I dropped out of law school. So if you feel like dropping out, just drop out.

Amber Day (38:28):

That’s not verbatim. What I said. I said, don’t quit anything. This next question.

Jerrod Murr (38:36):

What is a risk we’re taking? What is a risk worth taking?

Amber Day (38:41):

Not take, but I say compliment a stranger. So many people when they think risk, it’s like, Oh, it’s something huge with money or some big thing. Whatever did something small start small specifically when we’re talking about friendship, I cannot tell you just the brightness and somebody is facing say, Oh, I love that shirt. It’s like, Oh, thank you. You know, you think about it all day is, and it’s a risk. It’s hard to walk up. Like, I’m going to look weird. This person’s going to hate me. Their husband’s going to be standing around the corner and think I’m hitting on them. Whatever it take the risk,

Jerrod Murr (39:07):

Amber. Yeah. I love that answer. You know what? The other day I was in McDonald’s it was very fast. I grabbed my quarter pounder with cheese and as I walked out,

Amber Day (39:15):

Stop trying to talk to me and let’s go, come on, come on.

Jerrod Murr (39:17):

I wish you would shut your mouth so that I could ask this question. Who should I be listening to? Or following who should I be listening to or following. Okay.

Amber Day (39:33):

I think you guys are going to like this answer because it’s going to sound like a cop out, but it’s not yourself. I think you should listen to yourself in a time when we’re drown out by social media and by leadership books and by podcast, all of these things, it’s like, what should I do? What should I do? Who should I listen to? Slow down, listen to yourself for once. Like we talk about following that intuition for your friendship, with your boss, listen to yourself.

Jerrod Murr (39:54):

That’s a great answer. It really is that inner voice. You know, that deeper connection. That’s good. Is that what the alpha advises in the way of Kings? All right, here we go. Last question. Last mix. Tape track is on what is on your playlist right now?

Amber Day (40:11):

Am I allowed to say the way of King’s audio book or just kidding? You know what, if we’re talking podcasts and I can’t say the good leader podcast I’m going to say Nate land podcast. So it’s neighbor Godsy. He’s a comedian it’s clean. You can listen to what your family it’s two hours long. It is so pointless and rambling. And most of it is just them laughing at themselves. It’s really lights listening. And I love it. Great for my long commute.

Jerrod Murr (40:36):

Kind of like this podcast, almost exactly what we did. Is that what it is

Amber Day (40:40):

Similar to this that I might have like a copyright infringement. Yeah.

Jerrod Murr (40:44):

Well, all right. You heard it here. You heard it here. Folks. If you like this rambling, you’ll love Nate land. Thanks for listening by the Amber. Thank you so much in all sincerity. I would rarely say this to your face, but you’re a decent human being and I’m glad I’m taking that. Hey, thanks a lot. Good to get something done now. Okay. I will. All right. See ya. Bye.

Jerrod Murr (41:10):

That was so good, Ang! Now what? That was so good. I enjoyed it. That was a lot of fun. I don’t even know how much of our conversation is going to end up making the actual airways. You might have to go to the website to get the entire conversation because Amber and I could talk all day about this kind of thing.

Andrea Hyre (41:25):

And I recommend it. I heard that whole interview . Also, Amber and Jerrod are hilarious to listen to. They’re like the most opposite people, but they get along the best, so

Jerrod Murr (41:36):

Well, Amber is like the sister. I never wanted. That’s our, that’s how I like to describe our relationship. But yeah. So what are you, what do you think about, you heard the whole interview. Let’s go. I want, what’s your thoughts, questions. You, our listener, let’s wrap this thing up. What are your thoughts?

Andrea Hyre (41:50):

Yeah. Overall. I mean, again, you guys are just hilarious listened to and you, you guys do this thing so seamlessly that I don’t even think it got touched on, but I know you have some really good takeaways on this, but I think that there will be people who are asking the question, okay, you guys are friends. You know, you’re also bosses to other people and you know, your ambers boss. And so I I’m hearing the question that I can be friends with my boss. I’m hearing that. That can be a resounding yes, but what is the line relationally? I mean, what is the line where it’s like, we’re a little bit of too good of friends or not. You guys are you guys internally together. The lines are very clear, but on the outside the perception of the team, thankfully we do not have this, I would say on ours, but the perception of the team on the outside is like, yeah, they’re really together all the time. You know, there’ll be leaving the other pretty frequent, but you’re like, no, we’re just being friends. What’s the line.

Jerrod Murr (42:42):

Great, great question. Wow. That’s a very loaded question. Maybe we should have a whole another actually. We’re going to okay. That’s that’s a whole nother podcast. Alright. So let’s in the, in the show notes, stay tuned to have a part two on boundaries, but my short answer is boundaries. So if you’ll notice, even in the, in the first segment, when I’m talking about how to be a friend and boss, I would say, be consistent, be human, not a machine show who you are. Those things, those are very ethereal things. Those are very like, not necessarily personality driven, but they are emotionally driven. Like, okay. So being consistent, being consistent, actually though, that’s the one that I’m going to say translates both into the tangible and the intangible. So the intangibles are things like approachability, empathy, as a good leader I think you show those things, which is more art than science.

Jerrod Murr (43:32):

The science part is I have very hardcore boundaries almost to the point of where I would be probably prude to the eyes of most of the world, but that’s okay because prude is the root word of prudent. So if I’m true prude, it’s because I’m being prudent. So you kind of got two kind of tentacles there possibly. The one that I hear when you say that is like romantic, like, okay, is there more than that? They’re like, whatever the relationship is, is something going on there? Okay. This is where you have… So like for example, for Amber and I, she’s single, I’m married, happily married by the way. I love you, Jennifer Ray. So the first thing is boundaries for a very long time. I have had hardcore boundaries that I am never alone with someone of the opposite sex in a questionable situation.

Jerrod Murr (44:21):

So even if like Amber and I have to have a private meeting the door is usually cracked. If it has to be shut, my windows are wide open. I have windows to the world. I’m not cars alone. I set parameters, which I know everyone can’t necessarily do this, I guess. If you couldn’t do it, I would probably pitch a fit. Once again, coming out of an HR seminar as an employee, you have a lot of room to say I’m uncomfortable and your employer, you have a lot of room. So even if something like this is what I was gonna say is if I have to go on a business trip, Amber and I are never gonna go on a business trip alone. That has never, ever happened, nor will it ever happen because of prudence. Because it’s like we don’t. And can I, can I be completely gut wrenchingly honest.

Jerrod Murr (45:01):

I don’t want anything to happen. People are dumb, Ang. You need boundaries to protect yourself from yourself. Like, you know what I’m saying? It’s like, “Oh, Amber and I are never going to fall in love.” Well, that’s stupid. Make yourself not like, love is a choice to me. And you set boundaries to say, no, this is a professional relationship. We are friends, but I’m not going to let it go further than that. Why? Because then I have an amazing spouse that I also have boundaries with. So she and I, my wife and I here’s the other thing constantly communicate with your partner or with other people. So this kind of goes into the other tentacle, if you are thinking of that side that I I’m constantly. So there are some times if I have to meet up with another professional, let’s say not even, not Amber or not even someone on our team, but it’s like, I’m meeting with this HR rep it’s a lunch.

Jerrod Murr (45:46):

I will text my wife and let her know like, Hey, I’m meeting with this woman for lunch. Here’s why once again, I know that maybe old school, or you could say, I just think it’s fruit. And, and honestly even take all of my personal convictions out of it. Talk to your HR rep. You’re never going to be scared of just reporting too much saying, Hey, just letting you know, this is on the up and up. Hey, I’m just letting, letting somebody know this is what’s happening. And this is on the up and up. And this is not questionable. So whatever your boundaries are, setting those boundaries. That’s the key. But I do that also, the flip side would be the friendship side. So I was like, okay, well it’s not what it feels like, okay. I’m a heterosexual male. If I’m hanging out with another heterosexual male, okay.

Jerrod Murr (46:25):

People aren’t probably gonna accuse us of being romantic, but it’s like, they could accuse me of being, you know, having favorites or being like, okay, great. You guys are hanging out all the time. Once again, it comes back to boundaries like knowing, okay, I don’t go eat with the same person. I’m like, I don’t have these people are allowed to hang out with Jerrod because they’re friends, but we’re not, no, it’s, the boundary is fairness. And so it’s, it all comes down to kind of time and like approachability and letting people know, like I ask multiple people to hang out in groups, go to lunch, do this thing. And I try to diversify that enough that I am approaching people. So I don’t know if that, like I said, we need a whole podcast for it.

Jerrod Murr (47:03):

But the short answer is intangible is how you get the connection tangible boundaries is how you protect the connection.

Andrea Hyre (47:12):

In all ways. In all ways romantic or friendship or favorites or lack there of.

Jerrod Murr (47:18):

In all of them! That’s how, that’s the same thing with your marriage. It’s like the intangibles, what makes the chemistry or the connection or whatever. And that’s great. That’s really wonderful. And like, that’s what we call love. But the tangible is like, I love you so much. I’m going to protect this. So yeah, I like it. That’s it so good.

Jerrod Murr (47:35):

Now what let’s leave with this, know your boundaries. We’re going to go into probably have we have a podcast over at some point, but here we go. If you want to be a good leader, you want to be a friend and boss let’s take care of the intangible and the tangible today. Look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, what am I doing purposefully to make connections with my team? There you go. What am I doing purposefully to make connections with my team? Thank you for listening to the good leader podcast on behalf of the entire team here at Paradigm Shift, go out there and be a good leader!